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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:28:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon T2 is a problem because the BPOs get concentrated.... invention won't help that, unless successful invention is easier to achieve.
Concentration of t2 bpo's into the hands of one entity/community is not the result of everyone there got lucky with their R&D but due to many of them worked together, pooled resources to be able to buy prints from those who sold. You can't penalize these players for doing this.
The key to it isnt to penalize people who got lucky, worked for it, or in other ways aquired their prints. The key would be to fix invention (which was working quite well before they nerfed the runs tbh, or at least well enough to make it noticeable on the market).
I do have some t2 bpo's, and yes I know that a with invention being enhanced/fixed it would have an impact on the value of my prints and what is possible to earn from these. I also know that with invention I can look into build other t2 mods/ships that give higher profit back than what current prints are able to make. Over time invention would affect market prices.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:32:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Ky Vatta Has anyone ever wondered how Tech 2 prices got so high in the first place?? It is all because CCP decided to stop agents giving out components (needed for building Tech 2 items) as rewards for missions OK, it was supposedly to encourage more people to moon-mine at POS`s, and so start making more components, but it never really got off the ground This helped the Tech 2 BPo holders to get insane profits, which is why a lot of people hate the Tech2 BPO holders...
However, if the components became more common again, it is doubtful prices will drop much, if at all, as the builders prefer larger profits, even if costs are lower, thus encouraging more hate towards Tech 2....
Actually, there is a over-supply of pos materials, which make making tech2 building components quite cheap. You really need a good moon these days to make a healty living from pos's. I dont quite see the relation this have to do with give t2 bpo holders insane profits. Also not every t2 print gives a high yield.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:39:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Compliance If you can fix invention (eg make marginally profitable, stop datacores being such a huge bottleneck) and remove the existing t2 bpos this would be a fine solution.
If you leave the existing t2 bpos in, what on earth is even the point?
Actually it wouldn't the supply of t2 would decrease and press price up.
The point of invention was to gain another source of t2. And it works, (well worked until they nerfed the runs making invention become a huge isk sink). With invention working you could still produce t2 modules/ships at profit. Sure profit would be less than what someone with a original print got, but it still would be profit (and you could supply your corp/alliance with t2 at lower cost than market too).
Invention is nice, because it will affect the t2 mods/ships with the highest mark up's thus pritty much wont screw over the players with low yield t2 bpo's. Although, invention need to be fixed and balanced out compared to how it is no.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:50:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ky Vatta
OK, making them is cheap...but are people making them at all?? there are still limited supllies on components in Empire, which is where most business is conducted (business in 0.0?? don`t make me wet myself laughing)
I make thousands of tech2 building components a month. Most of my source of materials is from the market, and I end up build them for own production, not to sell on the market. There is many specialized component builders in eve who deliver high quantity.
I dont build components to sell on the market because they dont move much unless priced so low its not worth the effort. A factory job need to earn its time. If I can build something else that give more profit, I do so.
If you cant find the components you need, then buy the materials and build them yourself.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:54:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Luigi Thirty So people with BPOs get to keep them and nobody else ever gets a chance to get them. Wonderful.
What would you prefer? Get a small ammo print, or do invention and aim for the most profitable module/ship to invent? Not much of a choice is it? Lottery is like a box of chocolate. With invention you pick your own prize.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.21 23:57:00 -
[6]
Originally by: HankMurphy kieron, oveur, whomever:
I dont see a need for invention to totally take over. It can, if done correctly of course, but i would suggest (as many have before me):
Simply change the lottery to higher run bpc's instead of bpo's.
So, you will have a once/twice a year lottery where ppl get lucky and nab i high run bpc for some t2.
Then, throughout the year at anytime ppl can look to invention for yet another source of t2 bpcs. Would these be equal or of lesser caliber (in respect to # of runs)? Thats your call, but i'd say make them a decent fraction of the value (runs) of a lottery run bpc's.
Finally, bury the the entire past mistakes by announcing to the community that after 6-8-12 (whatever) months you will be converting ALL bpos to high run BPCs.
Simple, effective, /win.
Base tech2 soly on invention/bpc's would nerf the supply of t2 modules/ships big time. It shouldnt take much to realize this imho. There is a lack of supply of certain tech2 as it is. Remove all the bpo's in favour of limited run bpc's wont help on that situation at all.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.22 00:20:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Luigi Thirty
Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
Originally by: Luigi Thirty So people with BPOs get to keep them and nobody else ever gets a chance to get them. Wonderful.
What would you prefer? Get a small ammo print, or do invention and aim for the most profitable module/ship to invent? Not much of a choice is it? Lottery is like a box of chocolate. With invention you pick your own prize.
And meanwhile the people who have the BPOs never have to worry about buying COSMOS **** to invent.
I probably spent 20-30 hours in COSMOS due to invention after it got possible. What keep you from do the same? Invention require effort, beside Im refering to a state of invention that is fixed to be more player friendly. Invention should be another source, not the replacement.
And yes, the players with a bpo might have bought it for 70 billion and is watching invention increase the time to recover cost as price go down due to increased supply through invention. Of course, those with bpo's dont have to worry
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.22 00:27:00 -
[8]
Originally by: HankMurphy would that not depend on both: how many high run bpc's were given in new lotteries and how many runs would be obtainable under revised-invention?
there is no logical reason to keep the bpo's in the game unless we want to place them directly on the market for everyone. not one reason.
Implemented properly both systems can give you a sufficient amount of t2 supply. The bpc way promotes a community wide t2 market (beyond that of resellers) while the bpo way promotes cornered markets and 'top 2%' mentality
Base it soly on bpc's wouldn't make it possible to cover the markets demand. I dont see the bpc's would end up several houndred rounds. Just look at what is max run for t2 copies today. They wouldn't just increase that tenfolds or more.
Keep the BPO's in the game create a safety net. Invention need time, and over time it will slowly catch up. Yes Invention cost more than build from a orginal t2 bpo, but you also have to consider thouse that bought their bpo's rather than get them from agents. Its a large portion of the current bpo holders that did just that. You think turn their hard to get bpo's into bpc's would do EVE much good? Toss a stone in the water and it create ripples. Do this and it will turn to tidal waves imho.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.22 00:37:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lar Gunta
Originally by: Ky Vatta Has anyone ever wondered how Tech 2 prices got so high in the first place?? It is all because CCP decided to stop agents giving out components (needed for building Tech 2 items) as rewards for missions OK, it was supposedly to encourage more people to moon-mine at POS`s, and so start making more components, but it never really got off the ground This helped the Tech 2 BPo holders to get insane profits, which is why a lot of people hate the Tech2 BPO holders...
However, if the components became more common again, it is doubtful prices will drop much, if at all, as the builders prefer larger profits, even if costs are lower, thus encouraging more hate towards Tech 2....
wanna see T2 component prices drop?
- allow moon mining/manufacture in hi-sec. - disable POS if corp standing drops below the sec of the system
T2 components need to increase if any, not drop furhter. A higher demand for moon minerals and pos materials is needed imho.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.22 00:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: HankMurphy
bpcs or bpo's they need to be available to everyone. either go all bpc's or put the bpo's on the market and call it done with. (but that kinda ruins invention till t3, and that would be most unfair to anyone looking at using research in the near future.
Then you basically make t2 what t1 is now just at tons more work and higher cost for same profit. Oh gee, that would be fun.
Why does everyone seem to assume tech3 will be like tech2 just modules with higher stats? Tech 3 could involve a lot of things not necessary have a great impact on tech2 modules/ships at all.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.23 09:29:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Ruffio Sepico on 23/02/2007 10:13:23
The t2 lottery isn't really broken, but its flawed because you get RP's without have to work for it. Change it so you only continue gain RP's by doing the agent missions. Would be a nightmare for those who have multiple characters with R&D agent all over the place, but it would put more effort into it. Just as it require more effort with invention.
It would still end up be a chance of luck, but at least those involved worked for it and it stop be a "passive" system where you get thrown RP's at daily for no effort.
If this happend, a new system to make datacores available would be needed. Maybe why not make datacores a item players can make? Just as RAM Tech's did way back.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.23 09:29:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Ruffio Sepico on 23/02/2007 10:13:23
The t2 lottery isn't really broken, but its flawed because you get RP's without have to work for it. Change it so you only continue gain RP's by doing the agent missions. Would be a nightmare for those who have multiple characters with R&D agent all over the place, but it would put more effort into it. Just as it require more effort with invention.
It would still end up be a chance of luck, but at least those involved worked for it and it stop be a "passive" system where you get thrown RP's at daily for no effort.
If this happend, a new system to make datacores available would be needed. Maybe why not make datacores a item players can make? Just as RAM Tech's did way back.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.23 09:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lunhara Darkblade I notice a lot of people are talking about the profit that can be gained from tech 2 BPO's.
Not every t2 print is a "money printing machine", far from it. Some hardly break even, others not worth build from at all. Build something just because you got the print doesnt pan out well when you can do other things that bring in more profit.
Those with a low/mid level t2 bpo wouldn't fancy CCP to dish out another xx amount of the same bpo when they already hardly can keep head above water. Imho CCP need to look into the demand of t2 modules/ships and seed new bpo's acordingly. Although a working invention system would help fix this inbalance as players would always go for the high profit modules/ships.
Fix invention dont break everything else.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.23 09:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Lunhara Darkblade I notice a lot of people are talking about the profit that can be gained from tech 2 BPO's.
Not every t2 print is a "money printing machine", far from it. Some hardly break even, others not worth build from at all. Build something just because you got the print doesnt pan out well when you can do other things that bring in more profit.
Those with a low/mid level t2 bpo wouldn't fancy CCP to dish out another xx amount of the same bpo when they already hardly can keep head above water. Imho CCP need to look into the demand of t2 modules/ships and seed new bpo's acordingly. Although a working invention system would help fix this inbalance as players would always go for the high profit modules/ships.
Fix invention dont break everything else.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:07:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Ruffio Sepico on 23/02/2007 11:08:19
Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky I did post a few pages back but after rethinking the whole situation here is another idea. Keep the T2 lottery as it is but only for currently seeded items, all new T2 ships/modules should be invention only.
Eve is in a desperate need of isk sinks hence the blog about the new mission levels only giving LPs.
How about changing it so datacores and decryptors only are available as exploration loot and in the lowsec NPC market? After all with the lottery remaining as is no sane players will convert their RPs into datacores. This would put an artificial cap on the max price of the datacores you get from exploration but since it is in lowsec I bet some people will find a good way to make money moving them to high sec. Also NPC prices adjust quickly if the demand gets too high, especially if the availability is in the 2-4 item range per station.
And finally adjust the invention so the BPCs will be at ME0/PE0 and a minimum success rate of 50%. The BPO owners shouldn't be worried considering they still will have better ME/PE as well as no additional overhead caused by datacores, decryptors and invention slots.
For example if the datacores will be at 1 mill each and decryptors starting from say 1 mill for the worst a 1 run HAC BPC would cost about 20 mill to make plus the interface which still should be exploration drop only. The BPO owners will still have an upper hand however they can kiss the 1000% markup prices goodbye.
Everyone will be living happy ever after (except those currently with ISK printers).
If you want science to be a player profession for real. Make Datacores and decryptors something players can build. Have the blueprints for these drop as datainterface blueprints today does. Skill requirement should be fairly high (science as a profession should require high skills anyways).
Have decryptors and datacores make use of moon minerals (maybe some new reactions). It would boost pos's too which really need some love.
Make copy time of tech1 prints longer, and have the result of the invention job based more on the runs/pe/me value of the tech1 copy + your skills. Make the decryptors enhance the ME/PE value on invented bpc, but have them take more time. So better the decryptor the longer time to do the job.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Betonela to make a HAC atm if u have a BPO cost u 30m/run question: will someone get same costs/run whit invention ? (atm no)
Its not about how much it cost to make, but how much you earn from do it. So you earn xx mill less than someone with a bpo, but you still earn xxx mill more than you would not doing it.
Its in the nature of the players to get as much as you can from your time/effort. A t2 bpo holder wouldnt start sell at cost price just because invetors hit the market.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.23 12:57:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Oveur Awesome feedback. Keep it coming. I especially like examples like this below rather than speculation. As we stated, Invention today isn't ready, we want to identify which areas would make it ready, we don't have the luxury of time to adjust it anymore. It's the fate of Invention to get there, we're just moving it up.
Over in the Stations, starbased and outposts forum there is lots of threads on invention, may have a lot of examples and feedback but no dev response to any. Many good threads in genereal discussion too.
I suggest you look intohttp://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=470233 for a lot of feedback on invention. Effei Gloom put a lot of work into that post/thread imho.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.02.26 17:23:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Velios If CCP had just released T2 on the market in the first place we wouldnt have had this mess.
Remember before T2? Life was simple, good producers made a fair profit and everybody had equal chances to better themselves and their corps. HARD WORK in the game was proportionately rewarded by isk returns for the T1 producer.
I say, make all T2 available on the general market but with higher prices than T1 BPO's obviously. Then all is fair and everybody has a chance to do well. I mean come on, it's not like T2 is a new thing... RP wise, there is no logical reason why this technology should be shrouded in secrecy anymore.
Save that for T3 where we will probably see another round of monopolies and other farcical situations created by cutting edge industrial additions to the game.
If CCP are gonna do this, do it RIGHT and DON'T FORCE PEOPLE TO HAVE TO RUN SILLY, LINEAR, NON MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER MISSIONS IN ORDER TO BE INVOLVED IN T2 PRODUCTION.
Just put the BPO's on the market and open the game up to everyone, just like in the old days of T1, where everything was so much better. Then of course the real competition will be over the good moons (which are monopolised beyond belief)
Ergh? Because of the easy way to make bpc's tech1 market is flooded with bpc's wich in turn screw over most tech1 producers and t1 bpo holders. With the amount of isk in the system today, if seeding t2 bpo's on the open market, they would needed to be priced so high it would be out of range for most of the eve population, and you would end up with the prints on the hands of those already rich anyhow.
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.03.10 01:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Keijo I agree with former posters, make T2 BPOs into BPCs and let research work on BPCs. Invention becomes the way to get T2+ stuff, and the playing field is leveled a bit for new players.
Sure you are not one of Hugo Chßvez's economic advisors?
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